Author Topic: Sim on Todd's "Man of Miracles"  (Read 121677 times)

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Al Nickerson

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Re: Facts 4
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2006, 06:34:02 AM »
Quote from: "The Truth"

Dear Al,

They don't own squat, In fact why do you think Steve Bissette has went quiet all of a sudden? on the plus side however, I would like to thank you, Al, for creating this forum, as In the future Its going to be known as the place where Neil Gaiman had to finally come clean.
Of course he could just Ignore it and choose to receive messages through Stephen, but his silence would be the worst thing that he could do for his rep.

The Truth


You're welcome. :D

We'll see what happens. The whole legal issue of Miracleman looks like a complete mess. Maybe Dave Sim was right. Maybe Miracleman should be a Public Domain character, or maybe Bob's idea of those that worked on Miracleman should do their own version of the character. Otherwise, I don't see a time very soon when this whole mess will be settled.

Nice to see "Neil" stop by.  :)

The Truth

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Re: A question
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2006, 06:41:59 AM »
Quote from: "Question"
There is one thing that has seemed to be a mystery to me throughout this whole case - how could Marvelman be "owned" by anybody since it was a slavish copy of Captain Marvel, created only to fill the void when the American Captain Marvel ceased publication? Wouldn't DC win any court case where the copyright owners of Captain Marvel sued over infringement (in the same way that National sued and won agains Fox's Wonderman as a copyright infringement of Superman)?


No you are Incorrect,

It is a myth that Marvelman is a take off of Captain Marvel, it was Captain Universe that was supposed to be the replacement for Captain Marvel but Anglo shopped it to another company at the last minute.
He had a whole Captain Universe Family ready to go, but It never got as far as 2 Issues because of a threat of legal action from DC.
If you manage to get a copy of the original Captain then you will see what I mean.
However our friend is right, in that the Marvelman design is nothing like Captain Marvel. The big red cheese however is just Superman in a red suit.
There is no copyright that I know of on the whole superhero genre.
Miracleman is just one of thousands who are superheroes who look nothing like Superman.

One last thing..
Its not a law suit that is coming, its something that is going to take the whole comics world by surprise.


The Truth

Al Nickerson

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Re: Facts 4
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2006, 07:48:14 AM »
Quote from: "Al Nickerson"
Quote from: "The Truth"

Dear Al,

They don't own squat, In fact why do you think Steve Bissette has went quiet all of a sudden? on the plus side however, I would like to thank you, Al, for creating this forum, as In the future Its going to be known as the place where Neil Gaiman had to finally come clean.
Of course he could just Ignore it and choose to receive messages through Stephen, but his silence would be the worst thing that he could do for his rep.

The Truth


You're welcome. :D



I would also like to point out (fellow-moderator) Chuck Morrison's hard work with putting this forum together. Without Chuck's help, this forum wouldn't be here.

Thanks, Chuck. :D

Bob

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Re: Facts 6
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2006, 09:20:17 AM »
Quote from: "The Truth"

Jeez are you stupid? what part don't you get?
He doesn't own it, what is "vague" about that? Its copyright law and Its fact, go look it up dummy.


I probably am stupid, trying to engage "The Truth" in an actual discussion.  Dumbest thing I've done this month.

By "vague" I meant that you give no concrete references to names and sources, just throw around words like "thief".

I have to say, I hope for his sake that whatever the the Mysterious Mr. EMP (Ex Movie Producer) hires you for it's not as his legal counsel.

The Truth

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Re: Facts 6
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2006, 10:16:20 AM »
Quote from: "Bob"
Quote from: "The Truth"

Jeez are you stupid? what part don't you get?
He doesn't own it, what is "vague" about that? Its copyright law and Its fact, go look it up dummy.


I probably am stupid, trying to engage "The Truth" in an actual discussion.  Dumbest thing I've done this month.

By "vague" I meant that you give no concrete references to names and sources, just throw around words like "thief".

I have to say, I hope for his sake that whatever the the Mysterious Mr. EMP (Ex Movie Producer) hires you for it's not as his legal counsel.


I knew exactly what part you thought was "vague"
I however prefer the factual statements that include words like "theif"

Have a good think about the facts Bob and then go and look them up, then we can talk on an even level.

Regards

The Truth.

Michael Hanretty

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Re: A question
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2006, 10:20:35 AM »
Quote from: "The Truth"
Quote from: "Question"
There is one thing that has seemed to be a mystery to me throughout this whole case - how could Marvelman be "owned" by anybody since it was a slavish copy of Captain Marvel, created only to fill the void when the American Captain Marvel ceased publication? Wouldn't DC win any court case where the copyright owners of Captain Marvel sued over infringement (in the same way that National sued and won agains Fox's Wonderman as a copyright infringement of Superman)?


No you are Incorrect,

It is a myth that Marvelman is a take off of Captain Marvel, it was Captain Universe that was supposed to be the replacement for Captain Marvel but Anglo shopped it to another company at the last minute.
He had a whole Captain Universe Family ready to go, but It never got as far as 2 Issues because of a threat of legal action from DC.
If you manage to get a copy of the original Captain then you will see what I mean.
However our friend is right, in that the Marvelman design is nothing like Captain Marvel. The big red cheese however is just Superman in a red suit.
There is no copyright that I know of on the whole superhero genre.
Miracleman is just one of thousands who are superheroes who look nothing like Superman.

One last thing..
Its not a law suit that is coming, its something that is going to take the whole comics world by surprise.


The Truth


But... but surely if the original Captain Marvel was declared in a court of law to infringe on DC's copyright of Superman, Mike Anglo's Marvelman - with its very clear and obvious 'parallels' (I'm being charitable here) to CM - would mean the very foundation of this debacle is on shaky legal footing.

Any and all derivations of the original incarnation would therefore be dogged by the precedent set by DC's court case decades ago, right?

Al Nickerson

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Sim & Todd's "Man of Miracles"
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2006, 10:22:24 AM »
Let's try and play nice, fellas.  :)

I appreciate everyone coming to this forum and sharing their thoughts. We're not all going to agree. So, please avoid any insults or name-calling if you can. Thanks.

The Truth

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Re: A question
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2006, 10:58:12 AM »
Quote from: "Michael Hanretty"
Quote from: "The Truth"
Quote from: "Question"
There is one thing that has seemed to be a mystery to me throughout this whole case - how could Marvelman be "owned" by anybody since it was a slavish copy of Captain Marvel, created only to fill the void when the American Captain Marvel ceased publication? Wouldn't DC win any court case where the copyright owners of Captain Marvel sued over infringement (in the same way that National sued and won agains Fox's Wonderman as a copyright infringement of Superman)?


No you are Incorrect,

It is a myth that Marvelman is a take off of Captain Marvel, it was Captain Universe that was supposed to be the replacement for Captain Marvel but Anglo shopped it to another company at the last minute.
He had a whole Captain Universe Family ready to go, but It never got as far as 2 Issues because of a threat of legal action from DC.
If you manage to get a copy of the original Captain then you will see what I mean.
However our friend is right, in that the Marvelman design is nothing like Captain Marvel. The big red cheese however is just Superman in a red suit.
There is no copyright that I know of on the whole superhero genre.
Miracleman is just one of thousands who are superheroes who look nothing like Superman.

One last thing..
Its not a law suit that is coming, its something that is going to take the whole comics world by surprise.
The Truth

But... but surely if the original Captain Marvel was declared in a court of law to infringe on DC's copyright of Superman, Mike Anglo's Marvelman - with its very clear and obvious 'parallels' (I'm being charitable here) to CM - would mean the very foundation of this debacle is on shaky legal footing.
Any and all derivations of the original incarnation would therefore be dogged by the precedent set by DC's court case decades ago, right?


Wrong,

As I stated to your friend, Marvelman is no more a derivative of Captain Marvel than any other superhero is and it was never decided in court that Fawcet were Infringers, Fawcet threw in the towel, there was no verdict, do your research my friend.
The design was made to look as differant as possible and it was.
There are many parallels to many superheroes, however Marvelman is a better visual design than either Superman or Captain Marvel of that their is no doubt.
Thanks for the offer Michael but you can keep your "charity"

Gaimen and McFarlane the thief's its plain and simple.

The Truth

The Truth

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DC
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2006, 11:03:29 AM »
Yeah and I think DC's lawsuit would be 50 years to late.

Think before you post.


The Truth

Anonymous

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Sim & Todd's "Man of Miracles"
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2006, 11:18:08 AM »
The visual design is different, the thematic similarities are anything but. Pre-pubescent boy, magic word, adult alter-ego, similarly powered "family"... there's a hell of a lot in common between CM and MM. And the publishing history more than suggests that this was intentional.

And I'm not trying to be confrontational here. I'm just trying to see where this talk of "plain and simple" thievery fits into a legal situation that has been considered by almost all observers thus far to be most convoluted.

When are you and your employer taking action?

Michael Hanretty

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Sim & Todd's "Man of Miracles"
« Reply #40 on: April 16, 2006, 11:24:03 AM »
Sorry, the above is me again.

And - while my knowledge of legal matters is nebulous at best - with words like 'thief' being thrown around, ther's a clear ethical side to all this you're wanting to point out.

I have no idea of how this would play out in, well, any court, but from a creative standpoint it wasn't Mick Anglo's creation that has proved to endure in readers' minds but Alan Moore's - whose version has since been continued by Neil Gaiman. Now, all legal issues aside, I think (morally) it should be acknowledged that there wouldn't even be any interest in Marvelman were it not for the efforts - and vastly more original ideas - behind the works of Messers Moore and Gaiman.

Question

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Re: A question
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2006, 12:11:18 PM »
Quote from: "The Truth"
Wrong,

As I stated to your friend, Marvelman is no more a derivative of Captain Marvel than any other superhero is and it was never decided in court that Fawcet were Infringers, Fawcet threw in the towel, there was no verdict, do your research my friend.
The design was made to look as differant as possible and it was.
There are many parallels to many superheroes, however Marvelman is a better visual design than either Superman or Captain Marvel of that their is no doubt.
Thanks for the offer Michael but you can keep your "charity"

Gaimen and McFarlane the thief's its plain and simple.

The Truth


From Don Markstein's Toonpedia concerning the Captain Marvel lawsuit (which certainly sees the similarity between Capt. Marvel & Marvelman. Think of it - KIMOTA for SHAZAM, the Marvel Familys enjoyed by both teams - there is a more pronounced similarity of these comics than most):

Quote
By 1953, however, all comic book sales, particularly those of the superheroes, had sunk to the point where Fawcett was ready to throw in the towel. They settled the still-running lawsuit with DC, agreeing never to publish the character again. Only a faint echo remained L. Miller, a British publisher, replaced him with the very similar Marvelman.


From Don's Marvelman essay:
http://toonopedia.com/marvlman.htm
Quote
This presented a problem for Miller, where Cap etc. were still big sellers in fact, the biggest the company had. The solution was obvious: clone them. Miller hired cartoonist Mick Anglo for the task. At the end of 1953, as the Fawcett titles were dropping off, their Miller counterparts ran announcements that Cap, Junior and Mary had decided to go back to living as normal kids, and would be giving their powers back to old Shazam, the wizard. As of the January 27, 1954 issues, Marvelman and Young Marvelman replaced Cap and Junior, respectively, even to the point of continuing the numbering of the old series and transferring subscriptions to the new ones. Kid Marvelman, tho not exactly analogous to Mary, was added in 1956.


And the Wonderman lawsuit was won without any visual similarity to Superman. Let us read about it from the Markstein site:
http://http://toonopedia.com/wondrmn1.htm
Quote
... Wonder Man, which is notable for being both the very first imitation of Superman, and the first to be legally driven out of existence by Superman's owner, DC Comics. In fact, Wonder Man (no relation) was a special kind of wonder, a one-issue one. He was effectively dealt with before the second went to press.

Eisner (with his partner, Jerry Iger) was running a studio that supplied ready-to-print comic book feaures to publishers such as Quality Comics and Fiction House Magazines. He was given a single specification for this job: make it as much like Superman as possible. Eisner complied, not very pleased with the creative aspects but not yet fully aware of the legal ones. Tho his origin was different, Wonder Man was exactly like Superman in every way that really mattered.

He started out as Fred Carson, an ordinary guy if a little on the meek'n'mild side, who worked as a radio engineer for a company called International Broadcasting, and did some inventing on the side. While vacationing in Tibet, that universal source for all things mystic, he fell in with an ancient yogi, who gave him a magic ring to bash evil with. Wearing the ring, Fred was faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings at a single bound Also, reasonably invulnerable. The Lois Lane analog was Brenda Hastings, who had only scorn for wimpy ol' Fred, but was fascinated by Wonder Man.

Just as Fox had wasted no time before launching his Superman rip-off, DC wasted no time before suing him. The action started the moment Wonder Comics reached the stands. Fox was hit with an injunction against the use of Wonder Man until the matter could be settled in court, so instead, Wonder Comics #2 introduced Yarko the Great, one of those magical superheroes wearing a stage magician's outfit with a turban, like Ibis the Invincible or Sargon the Sorceror.

When the case did get to court, Fox carefully instructed Eisner on how to testify. Instead, Eisner told the truth, and that put an end to Wonder Man for good. It also put an end to the Eisner-Iger Studio's prospect of getting paid for the work it had already done, making it the first of many comics industry creditors stiffed by Fox.

DC went on to sue Master Man, Steel Sterling, and eventually Captain Marvel off the face of the earth, but before too long the crowd of Superman imitators became too thick to deal with, and the world became safe for super-fast, super-strong, invulnerable, flying, spandex-wearing champions of truth, justice and the American way.


So, I'd say there is a fair case to be made for Marvelman being a Captain Marvel clone.

The Truth

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Re: A question
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2006, 12:57:38 PM »
Quote from: "Question"
Quote from: "The Truth"
Wrong,

As I stated to your friend, Marvelman is no more a derivative of Captain Marvel than any other superhero is and it was never decided in court that Fawcet were Infringers, Fawcet threw in the towel, there was no verdict, do your research my friend.
The design was made to look as differant as possible and it was.
There are many parallels to many superheroes, however Marvelman is a better visual design than either Superman or Captain Marvel of that their is no doubt.
Thanks for the offer Michael but you can keep your "charity"

Gaimen and McFarlane the thief's its plain and simple.

The Truth


From Don Markstein's Toonpedia concerning the Captain Marvel lawsuit (which certainly sees the similarity between Capt. Marvel & Marvelman. Think of it - KIMOTA for SHAZAM, the Marvel Familys enjoyed by both teams - there is a more pronounced similarity of these comics than most):

Quote
By 1953, however, all comic book sales, particularly those of the superheroes, had sunk to the point where Fawcett was ready to throw in the towel. They settled the still-running lawsuit with DC, agreeing never to publish the character again. Only a faint echo remained L. Miller, a British publisher, replaced him with the very similar Marvelman.


From Don's Marvelman essay:
http://toonopedia.com/marvlman.htm
Quote
This presented a problem for Miller, where Cap etc. were still big sellers in fact, the biggest the company had. The solution was obvious: clone them. Miller hired cartoonist Mick Anglo for the task. At the end of 1953, as the Fawcett titles were dropping off, their Miller counterparts ran announcements that Cap, Junior and Mary had decided to go back to living as normal kids, and would be giving their powers back to old Shazam, the wizard. As of the January 27, 1954 issues, Marvelman and Young Marvelman replaced Cap and Junior, respectively, even to the point of continuing the numbering of the old series and transferring subscriptions to the new ones. Kid Marvelman, tho not exactly analogous to Mary, was added in 1956.


http://toonopedia.com/wondrmn1.htm[/url]
[quote


So, I'd say there is a fair case to be made for Marvelman being a Captain Marvel clone.[/quote]

Nonsense, absolute balderdash.

All of the above is pure hearsay and I would like to point out that tons of super heroes can fly and use magic words etc..
none of the above have a clue, how could they? they weren't there were they?
So Mickey Moran worked at the Daily Bugle as a copy boy, do you think he should sue Marvel comics for using his newspaper for Peter Parker to work at? dont be silly.

All hearsay and way off mark.

They are both thief's and you know It.

The Truth

Question

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Sim & Todd's "Man of Miracles"
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2006, 02:42:59 PM »
Balderdash, nonsense, heresay... or historical fact?

Joseph

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Sim & Todd's "Man of Miracles"
« Reply #44 on: April 16, 2006, 02:52:28 PM »
For someone who calls himself "The Truth" you sure do bend it a lot, and now I'm being polite.

Marvelman/Miracleman is clearly an utter and complete copy of Captain Marvel.

Yes, there are many heroes that get granted powers by wise old men or whatnot, and there are many heroes who fly and are superstrong and whatnot, and yes, there are many heroes who use a magic word to activate their powers.

HOWEVER

there are very few heroes who have all of these things. Captain Marvel has these things, and so does Marvelman/Miracleman. Add to this the obvious parralels between their respective "families" and you've got pretty much undeniable proof that Marvelman/Miracleman is a blatant take off Captain Marvel and his pals.

And although you deny it, Marvelman/Miracleman WAS meant to replace Captain Marvel.

Sure, he may not look anything like him, but the thematic parallels are so blatant it would take a major quantum thing for them to be accidental.